MURDERED: Nori Amaya

Crime Junkie54:53

English auto-captions · YouTube edition

Ashley says the DNA in Nori Amaya’s case returned no match in CODIS.

CODIS searches can do two jobs: connect crime-scene DNA to a person’s stored profile, or connect separate crime scenes even while the donor remains unknown. The FBI calls the latter a forensic hit. Its national index stores the DNA profile with laboratory and specimen identifiers; offender names are not stored in the CODIS record.

The FBI’s current forensic STR profiles record variants at 20 core positions in DNA. When software flags a candidate match, the participating laboratories exchange information and confirm it. Investigators can then seek a fresh reference sample for evidentiary testing. A database hit therefore begins a new investigative step.

Original source

Full transcript

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley

Flowers.

>> And I'm Brett.

>> And the story I have for you today about

the 2009 murder of a Washington DC salsa

queen is one that haunts me. At first,

investigators thought this might be an

easy case to close. They have

surveillance footage, a clear recounting

of the victim's final steps. But there

is one huge problem. It was Halloween.

The clubs were packed and the streets

were full of people in masks and

costumes. So, even on camera, police

can't always tell who they're looking

at. Was that a coincidence? Or was it

part of a careful plan to hide in plain

sight? It seems like this killer knew

what he was doing. He took things from

the crime scene that might have led back

to him, but in doing so, he actually

might have left the biggest clue. This

is something that has never been

reported before. and me and our

reporting team went deep on this one and

what this clue might mean. And we think

we could be just one tip away from

solving this one. So, crime junkies,

listen close and make sure you share

this episode with a friend, especially

any friends that you have in the DC

area. This is the story of Noria.

Our

story begins first thing Monday morning,

November 2nd, 2009. Carlos Amaya is

getting to work to begin a week that is

already off to a rough start. So Carlos

is the chef and co-owner of a popular

Italian restaurant in Washington DC,

which he runs with his sister. And even

though he just hosted this big private

party the night before, he is at the

restaurant bright and early on just a

couple of hours of sleep to fire up the

wood burning oven and get started on a

massive catering order for something

like 170 people. But when he calls the

client to let them know that he's going

to be there with the order around 10:00

a.m., the client is like, "No, no, no.

Your sister never confirmed the order."

So, we tried to call her and tell her

that it was cancelled.

>> Oh, I'd be so pissed at my sister.

Carlos was his 38-year-old sister, Noria

Amaya, is the other half to the

business. He's the chef. She works like

front of house on the customer side of

things, and it's like a good arrangement

because she's the people person of the

two siblings.

>> So, normally it works out, but something

has been up with her the last couple of

days.

>> The day before, Nory didn't show up to

help with the private party like she was

supposed to. Carlos kind of blew that

one off because he knows that she had

been going through a breakup and he was

trying to like cut her a little bit of

slack, but now they're like losing

business and he is over it.

>> He wants to call her and like read her

the riot act. The problem is he can't

because her phone is with him. You see,

two nights ago, what would have been

Saturday, that was Halloween, and Nory

had apparently left her phone in a cab

that she took home that night, or

technically it would have been like

early Sunday morning. The cabbie found

the phone and at some point called

Nory's mom, who sent Carlos to go meet

the cabbie and pick it up.

>> Okay, so why is Carlos still holding on

to it, though?

>> Well, cuz he thought he was going to be

seeing her at work that same day. He was

just going to like give it to her then,

but she didn't show. And remember, it's

like 2009. Like we actually at that time

all knew how to live without our phones

for a day back then, especially Nory

because apparently she was prone to

losing her phone maybe more than most.

So unable to call her, Carlos decides to

go by Nory's apartment because he's got

the time now that he doesn't have to

like do this, you know, big 170 person

catering order. So when he gets to her

complex like 10 minutes away, he signs

in at the front desk before going to her

unit on the 11th floor. He knocks. He

checks the door, but it's locked. So, he

crouches down and even looks through the

mail slot. And he can see inside, but

the lights are off. So, the apartment is

completely dark. And so, Carlos is

thinking like, "Okay, you know what?

Nory is clearly going through it with

this breakup. She's probably still

asleep." Or maybe she just doesn't want

to talk to anyone right now.

>> So, he decides to give her a little bit

more space. If she's not at the

restaurant by the dinner shift, then

he'll take more drastic measures to like

shake her out of it. And guess what?

>> She doesn't show up.

>> By closing time on Monday, Carlos's

frustration is turning into fear. He has

made some calls. Nobody in their family,

including their mom, who normally talks

to Nory daily, has heard from her. So

that night, Carlos and his younger

sister Liz, they go to Norie's building

together. And they're not just knocking

at this point. They told us this time

they asked the security guard to unlock

Norie's door and it's the guard who

leads the way into her living room.

Everything is still dark except for a

bathroom light that's on. So Liz flips

on the light switch. They see Nory's

Halloween costume laying on the couch,

this like black dress and a feathered

Venetian style mask, but no Nory. And

nothing seems to be out of place. So

Carlos calls out to her like to give her

the chance to come out or get decent

before he just like opens her bedroom

door. Now the room is dark when he

finally goes in, but he can tell that

Nory is in her bed partially covered by

a comforter. And then the rest happens

quickly. He turns on the light. He sees

Norie's hair and one of her hands

peeking out from under the covers. And

when he gets closer, he notices marks

around her neck. So Carlos pulls the

comforter back and his sister is blue.

She's only in her black underwear so he

can see all of the bruises all over her

body. But there's something in him like

he cannot stop calling out her name like

begging her to just like get up even

though like looking at her you and I

would know that's not computing for him.

>> He's in shock. He's just like desperate

to get some kind of reaction out of her.

So he even like hits her trying to prove

to himself that what he's seeing isn't

real because his mind cannot accept that

she's gone. And that's when Liz walks

into the room. And she reaches out to

touch Nory, but her skin is so cold that

Liz literally jumps back. She and Carlos

cling to each other and just like drop

to the floor while the security guard

calls 911. By 9:11 p.m., the apartment

is full of DC Metro Police officers. The

detective who is assigned to the case is

Tony Patterson. Now, lucky for us,

Detective Patterson is retired now, so

he was able to talk to us for this

episode. I actually don't know if we

could have done it without him because

DC Metro Police Department denied our

foyer. And while the new MPD detective

assigned to the case did talk to us,

like he didn't go into much depth with

us. Still, he gave us some information,

verified some details, so like grateful.

But much of what we've come to learn

about this case will be from Detective

Patterson's memory. But going back to

that night inside Nory's apartment, by

that point, Detective Patterson's been

with MPD for decades. A lot of that time

was spent in homicide, so he knows what

he's looking for when he gets onto a

homicide scene. And here, I mean, we've

got locked door. No signs of forced

entry. The apartment isn't ransacked. In

fact, nothing valuable seems to be

missing. Nory's purse is still on the

couch. So, this wasn't a robbery gone

wrong. This looks like somebody came

here for Nori with the goal of either

sexually assaulting her, killing her, or

both. It was a 1/8 in ligature of some

kind that ultimately was used to

strangle and kill her. But the autopsy

shows that she fought back. There were

injuries around her mouth and her chin,

including a laceration inside her lower

lip. There's a hemorrhage under the back

of her scalp, bruising across her upper

right chest, and both breasts, and lots

of bruises and abrasions on her arms,

right hand, and right leg. Detective

Patterson remembers that bruising on her

arms. It made him think that someone may

have like pinned her down on the bed

while she fought back. And there's also

lacerations and bruising to Norri's

genital area. And one of the few details

we did get from the new investigator is

that they believe Nori was sexually

assaulted. But whoever assaulted and

strangled her was calculated and at

least had a basic understanding of

forensics because there was no semen

found during the autopsy and no nail

clippings that produced anything useful

because the fingernails that Nory always

kept long had been cut all the way down.

And Brit, the killer had to have taken

the fingernails with them because there

weren't any in her apartment. I

>> mean, I have so many questions, but

like, did the killer bring their own

clippers? Did they have to use like what

was there? Hers.

>> The current detective told us that they

don't know what her nails were cut with.

They also don't know what she was

strangled with. Like, it could have been

a cord of some kind. I know they tested

a USB cord in her room, but that didn't

have any of her DNA on it.

>> So, whatever that was, he may have

brought it or found it. But either way,

probably took that with him, too.

>> And with all this like

caution, this person either watches like

a lot of CSI or they've done this

before.

>> I mean, my own opinion, I don't think

they were some kind of like brilliant

mastermind. Like I think they knew about

as much as the general public like

you're saying from like CSI or something

like they're going to know that police

get DNA from semen from nail clippings

like the end.

>> Otherwise I think this killer would have

taken more precautions because the

killer didn't get rid of all of the

physical evidence. During the autopsy

unidentified male DNA was collected from

two areas of Norie's body. And I know

they got touch DNA from either her chest

or her breast area. actual touch DNA or

could it have come from like saliva?

>> So, the autopsy report doesn't show any

of the results from the testing. It just

shows me what areas they swabbed.

>> They should be able to tell if saliva

was present or not. I've seen that in

other cases. No one from MPD could or

would provide us the details. They just

said that it was touch DNA. But Carlos

is pretty dialed into the investigation,

Nory's brother. and he said that he

remembers being told that it was like

true touch DNA like from skin-to-skin

like contact kind of thing.

>> Now, one would assume that would be like

a hand.

>> But if it was, that's wild to me because

the police didn't find any fingerprints

on her body or apartment that they

believe were from the killer. But you

know, who needs prints when you have

their DNA, right?

>> Right. Well, it's only good if we can

find someone to compare it to. Because

even though this sample was good enough

to be put into Cotus, there were no

matches in the system. So, who could

have been in Nor's apartment and when?

The autopsy doesn't include a time of

death window. So, that's one of the

first mysteries that Detective Patterson

has to solve. Like before you can ever

ask somebody for an alibi, you need to

know like what your critical window of

time is in the investigation.

>> Well, lucky for him, Nory's apartment

building has decent security. It is one

of the biggest apartment complexes in

DC. It is 12 floors and more than,00

units.

>> That's basically a small city.

>> Yeah. So, if you live there, you need a

key card to swipe into the main

entrances. The front desk is staffed

around the clock and visitors are

supposed to sign in. There were also at

least six cameras in the lobby and more

cameras around the building and garage.

So, of course, Detective Patterson

thinks that all of that surveillance is

going to just hand him Nory's killer on

a silver platter.

>> He goes right to the night of Halloween

when he's looking at this footage. That

is the last time that anyone says they

saw or spoke to Nory. That's the night

that she left her phone in the cab. So,

he scrubs through Saturday into the

early morning hours of Sunday, and he

spots her coming into the building alone

around 2:30 a.m. They know it's her

because she's got on a black dress, and

she's holding the mask that they found

on her couch. But guess what? It's

Halloween and everyone is wearing

costumes.

>> Everyone all weekend, people are coming

and going in masks and wigs and

costumes. So, even if someone came

through the front and was captured, we

might not even have their face. And

that's if they came through the front.

Carlos told us at the time there were

other ways to get into the building,

like near the parking areas that weren't

covered by cameras at all. And Nory's

floor didn't have any cameras either.

So, is the killer on film? I think the

answer is yes and no. No, they're

probably not showing their face in the

building security footage, but yes, I

think their image could have been

captured on film, actually by Nory

herself. Because as the police start

working backwards, tracing Norie's

movements before she got to her

apartment building, they realized that

she had something else with her that

night. A small red digital camera. But

they never found a small red digital

camera anywhere in her apartment, which

means the killer may have taken

something from Nory after all.

Nor's family tells Detective Patterson

that she had a small red digital camera

that she took everywhere.

>> I mean, it's 2009. We all did. My little

Sony Cybershot went everywhere with me

and it was blue.

>> And that is actually what her family

thinks they remember her having, a red

Sony Cybershot.

>> Detective Patterson told us that he

knows she had it out with her that

night. He found video proof of it

because he traced her movements that

night and he found out that she had

spent Halloween at a club like salsa

dancing with friends. And salsa dancing

was like her big thing. It became part

of her recovery after she went through

some health issues when she was younger.

And she got so good at it that she even

competed locally. She knows basically

every salsa club in DC. And people even

called her the salsa queen. Now, this

club that she was at, police say there

were no standout incidents that happened

while she's out dancing. No big fights

or anything that gets like caught on

surveillance cameras that they look at.

But there was drama. So, remember how I

said that Nori was going through a

breakup? Yeah. So, the club was owned by

the guy she was breaking up with.

>> Breaking is active. So, she was ending

things.

>> Well, yes, kind of more complicated than

that, which I'll get into, but she was

planning to end it that night. So, let

me give you a little bit of backstory

and then I'm going to jump back into the

timeline.

Detective Patterson learns from Nory's

family and friends that for a few months

before she was murdered, she was

involved with the club's owner, this guy

named Gustavo. Gustavo didn't respond to

our outreach. So, his perspective comes

from a 2010 interview that he gave to

the Washington Post about Nory's murder.

But he said that he and Nory had a lot

in common. I mean, both were immigrants

from Latin America who had made like the

DC area home. Nor's family came to the

US from El Salvador when she was

younger. and Gustavo came to DC from

Argentina and both had built their lives

around the restaurant business. Nori

took over the Italian restaurant with

Carlos and Gustavo opened his Latin

American club. So they both knew what it

was like to build something of their own

here. The same long hours, the same

stressors, same business problems, and

the same passion. And he said they were

exactly alike. But there was a major

part of Gustavo's life that Nori didn't

know about when they first started

seeing each other. He was married. And

Nori only found out after she was

already in deep. People close to Nory

told us that after Nory confronted

Gustavo, he told her that the marriage

was basically over, but getting divorced

could cost him everything. The

restaurant, his money, all of it. So he

apparently told her that like you know

him and his wife being together that was

just like a financial arrangement. Now

whether that was true or not, Nori kept

seeing Gustavo. But Carlos says that

over time it was clear to her that

Gustavo didn't want to build a future

with her. At least not the kind that she

wanted. I mean Nori wanted to get

married and have kids. And she was tired

of feeling like she was stuck in the

middle of someone else's marriage. Now,

Gustavo said in that 2010 interview that

he felt like things were moving fast as

the relationship got more serious, like

a little too fast. And you know who else

might not have liked how fast things

were moving? Gustavo's wife.

>> Yeah.

>> Carlos said that about 2 weeks before

Norie's murder, the main phone rang at

their restaurant. Carlos picked it up

and the woman on the other end asked to

speak with Nori and said that she was

Gustavo's wife. So Carlos says he takes

down her name and phone number on the

restaurant's like reservation clipboard

and he gave that message to his sister.

He doesn't know if Nory called this

woman back or what happened, but clearly

like Cat was out of the bag.

>> And if the two women were comparing

notes, Nory might have realized that she

was getting worked. That's the headspace

that she seemed to be in by Halloween.

She was at a breaking point. And so,

normally Norie loved Halloween. Like,

every year she would make these

elaborate costumes and celebrate by

going dancing. But that year, Carlos

says that she was so upset about Gustavo

that she didn't even bother to make a

costume. He actually made the mask for

her that she wore. I guess he found this

like old Venetian style mask in their

upstairs office. He like took it apart,

added some bright feathers, and that's

what Nory wore with like a black dress.

>> So, back to Halloween night. That night,

it was Nory's turn to get off early and

Carlos's to close the restaurant. And

around 9:30 p.m., they sat at the bar to

have dinner and share a bottle of their

favorite wine together. And Carlos says

that over dinner, Nory started crying

about Gustavo. She felt like she was

finally done with him, like ready to

break up for good. Carlos told her that

she deserved better. And then around

10:30 p.m., Nori headed out for the

night. Her first stop was Gustavo's

Club, the Roomba Cafe. Like I said,

there was video footage from her time

there that Detective Patterson reviews.

And everything's normal. People were

dancing, drinking, moving through the

room in costumes and masks. And at one

point, he sees Nory sitting at a table

taking pictures with the small red

camera that would later go missing. But

here is where the drama starts. Though

none of it is really like caught on

film, Detective Patterson pieces it

together through talking with people who

were there that night, like Gustavo and

Nory's two friends, who I'm going to

call Amanda and David for privacy

reasons. Detective Patterson learns that

Nory spent at least part of the night

around Gustavo. At some point, she asked

him to sit with her, but Gustavo said

no, he was working. And Gustavo

remembered later that Nori seemed sad

behind her mask.

>> I wonder why.

>> Right. And Detective Patterson remembers

even texts that Nory sent to a friend

around this time of the night. She said

that she was upset because Gustavo

wasn't paying any attention to her. So

eventually she left without saying

goodbye to anyone

>> and she left on her own.

>> Yeah. So her one friend David said that

he got pretty drunk and so someone took

him home from the club. And her other

friend who I'm calling Amanda said that

she stayed and partied into the night

with Gustavo and his group near Roomba

after Nory left, which at first like I

thought was kind of weird. like why are

you staying with your friend's ex that

she's like having problems with? But

Amanda actually worked at Roomba Cafe

before. So she was actually friends

>> kind of like her group first.

>> She was friends with both of them,

right?

>> But wait, like did Nory actually break

up with Gustava or No.

>> Well, according No. No. So according to

Gustava, she did not. Now Nori doesn't

go right home from here when she leaves

Roomba Cafe. She never let anything,

even a bad night, get in the way of her

dancing. So, Detective Patterson said

that she went to a lounge and then to a

club downtown to meet up with her dance

partner. But tonight, something was

different. She got to the downtown club

called Bravo Bravo around 1:45 a.m. And

her dance partner told Detective

Patterson that she wanted to leave

almost immediately. It looked to him

like she was crying under her mask. So

within 15 minutes of being there, he

walked her outside, helped her into a

cab back to her apartment, and watched

her leave. That is the cab that took her

home. We know she gets there by 2:30.

And Carlos told us that he remembers

police's best guess being that she died

sometime in the window of 2:30 a.m. to

6:00 a.m. So there was nothing else on

her phone or anything about something

happening or like meeting up with

someone. Current investigators would not

go into detail about her phone. They

just told us that there was nothing in

there that had any bearing on her

murder. Now, Carlos actually used to

have her phone, like after police

extracted all the data off of it, they

gave it back to him. But of course, like

he lost it during a move, which like

broke my heart cuz I would give anything

to be able to go through that and like

try and piece things together. But the

only thing that Carlos really remembered

is that Nori called him around midnight

that night to like maybe meet up, which

may have been, I think, around the time

she left Roomba Cafe. But he told her

that, you know, he was just at a

friend's party. It was like more of a

chill hang when she called. And he's

like, you know, it's not going to be

worth it for you to come,

>> which like of course he said,

>> yeah, he spent like years wondering like

what would have happened if he told her

just to come to that party anyways. And

how long was she at that like lounge

place before she went to the downtown

club? Like the timing of it all.

>> I don't know exactly. I'm sure it is in

the case files, but we like I said don't

have those and Detective Patterson

couldn't remember anything.

>> Okay. I'm just trying to like gauge

whether something maybe happened there

or if she was just like upset by the

Gustava stuff like the whole she leaves

crying. As far as we know, she was just

upset about Gustavo. No one has ever

come forward with anything else. else.

I'm saying if someone out there knows

something else, like now is your time to

shine. But if it really was just the

Gustavo stuff, I'm thinking that she was

probably like drinking all night. She's

in her feels. Like maybe all of those

emotions just caught up with her later

and overwhelmed her,

>> right? And like everyone else is having

a good time around her, stuff like that.

>> Yeah. You just want to go home.

>> I assume that the police checked

Gustavo's alibi, right?

>> Yes. He was one of the first people that

they brought in for questioning. I mean,

they have Nory's siblings saying, "Look

at him." Her friend David was even

saying, "Look at him." And David didn't

just know Nory. Like Amanda, he also

knew Gustavo, too. Because apparently

one of his family members said that he

picked up shifts at Gustavo's club. So,

like, that probably carried some weight.

Well, not only does Gustavo deny killing

Nori again and again, he gives Detective

Patterson an alibi for the night of

Halloween into the morning after. He

says he was out with his friends like

Amanda and that group the whole time.

Those friends later back that up and

after he called it a night, Gustavo says

that he went back to his apartment which

is above the club and just went to

sleep.

>> I mean,

we don't know when she died though. So,

>> I guess like is that an alibi?

>> It's soft, which is why they still

collect his DNA. And they ask him about

the third person in this love triangle,

his wife. Why did she call Nori a couple

of weeks before her death? Was she

threatening her? And Gustavo's response

is surprising. Gustavo said that Nori

told him about the phone call. So he

confronted his wife about it, but she

denied making the call. She denied it

again when she talked to the reporter

for that Washington Post article. like

she herself when she talked to them. But

Gustavo said that this call scared him

even more because if his wife didn't

call Nory, then who did? And why would

someone pretend to be his wife?

>> Well, that would open a whole can of

mystery worms and speculation that

Detective Patterson thinks aren't

necessary. He said, quote, "That was

Gustavo's wife." End quote. So, it seems

like he thinks she did make that call

and he took it seriously enough during

the initial investigation to question

her, get a verifiable alibi from her,

and even get her DNA as well. But like,

why get hers? I thought like male DNA

was found.

>> Yes. But I don't You can never be too

sure.

>> Yeah. And I mean, like when you think

about it, like one of the things

Detective Patterson considered was

whether a third person could have been

acting on behalf of Gustavo or his wife.

I mean, there was someone in particular

that Patterson even had in mind back

then. This employee at Gustavo's Club

who lives in the same building as his

boss located above the club. This guy

raised eyebrows because not long after

Nory's death, Norie's friend David

alerted police that this employee just

like up and left the country, went to

Argentina. The employee said that it was

for a family funeral, but the timing was

just like a little too perfect in

detectives minds. So they actually

concocted a little sting operation to

surreptitiously get his DNA. Detective

Patterson and his partner, they fly down

to Argentina with two FBI agents. They

meet the employee under the guise of

being interested in buying some property

from him. So they like then make plans

to have dinner with him. And then during

dinner when he's away,

>> this like a whole spy drive,

>> I'm telling you, they swipe his glass

and his spoon. They bring the samples

back to the US and the investigators

test all three samples. Gustavos, his

wives, the employees, and then they

wait, but the DNA results come back one

by one. No match to Gustavo, no match to

the wife, and no match to the employee.

>> Did the employee have an alibi?

>> Yes. So, as much as anyone can when you

don't know the time of death, right? And

surveillance footage showed him still at

the club for hours after Nory left. And

investigators also find out, by the way,

that that funeral in Argentina was

legit. They didn't just like make that

up to get out of dodge.

>> Okay. But I can't come up with a

scenario where any of these people

taking like her camera

>> makes

I'm obsessed with this camera.

>> I don't think the wife would have a

reason. Like the only thing that

possibly makes sense would be like

if the wife was like seen in the

background of a picture that would prove

that she was like following Norien that

night.

>> Yeah. But police know that she wasn't

out that night based on her alibi. And

we know that she didn't match the DNA.

>> Mhm.

>> So, not her.

>> I guess the employee wouldn't want to be

seen in a picture if it was like at one

of the last two places she went to. Like

him being in pictures from like the

Roomba cafe doesn't mean anything cuz he

works there. We know he's there,

>> right?

>> If it was Gustavo,

I think he has the most to hide if there

were pictures of him and Nori together

on the camera. But that would be like if

his wife didn't know about the affair

and we have detective Patterson saying

that like he absolutely believes that

she did,

>> right? So,

>> so the question becomes like who else

would have been on that camera from that

night?

>> I think the other people who were with

her that night probably and

investigators check those people out. I

mean, they look at her dance partner. He

was the last one with her, right? He's

the one that puts her in the cab to go

home. But there's no motive there.

there. I mean, he was only with her for

a few minutes, and icing on the cake,

his DNA wasn't a match either. Truth be

told, Patterson said they never really

even suspected him. They really just

tested his DNA to make sure that they

were leaving no stone unturned,

>> crossing tees, dotting eyes. But the

real person who drew a lot of suspicion

from police was somebody that Nori had

known for years. Somebody she trusted.

The very man who offered up Gustavo's

name as a suspect. The one who then

pointed police in the direction of

Gustavo's employee. The same man who

somehow showed up to the crime scene, by

the way, the same day that Nory was

found without being called. And that's

David.

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David and Nory knew each other well. One

of David's family members told us that

he and Nory went way back, like all the

way back to high school. They were part

of a group that stayed in touch as they

grew up. And David would still go out

salsa dancing with Nory and their

friends from time to time. And from

Detective Patterson's perspective,

David's basically been a part of this

investigation from the beginning. Though

to begin with, he was just a witness.

one who was conveniently in Nor's

building the night that her body was

found, like as police were processing

the scene. So, let me lay it out for

you. Nor's sister Liz told us that after

the 911 call, police took over the

apartment and asked Carlos and Liz to

move into the hallway. And when Liz

walked out, David was there waiting in

the crowd that had gathered around the

door to see what was going on. Now, she

can't tell us exactly how many minutes

had passed since police got there or

what time she saw David. Like,

everything was just happening quickly,

>> but the way she remembers it, they found

Nory and then in her words, poof, David

was suddenly right outside the

apartment. Like, to her, it felt quick.

Like too quick.

>> I mean, did someone call him?

>> Not Carlos or Liz. I mean, and there

could be, listen, an innocent

explanation for this.

>> Okay. Well, what's his explanation?

Well, we've tried multiple ways,

multiple times to get in touch with him.

We haven't been able to make contact.

Detective Patterson remembers that his

explanation was like weird and he

remembers asking David about it, but he

doesn't remember

>> like what it actually was.

>> Yes. Unfortunately, now what I will say

is that Carlos said David was calling

Nory at the same time. Like Carlos had

her phone because of, you know, David

hadn't heard from her. So maybe he got

worried and went to go look for her just

like Carlos did. But another friend of

Norris had this weird interaction with

David, too. She was at work when she

found out that Nory was murdered. So

friends picked her up and drove her to

Nory's mom's house. On the way, she

called the house to like, you know, let

them know she was coming, make sure it

was okay. And it was David that

answered. He was there. And off the bat,

David started like launching into this

really detailed explanation of where he

was the night Nory died and why he

wasn't with her. Like he got sick, he

had a cold or something. So he went

home, took some meds, and then he fell

asleep and then he just overslept. And

Nory's friend was sitting there thinking

like, why are you telling me? Like why

aren't we talking about Nory?

>> But she just let him go on and on. And

she told us as soon as she hung up, she

turned to the people in the car and said

that was the weirdest conversation. But

back to Nory's apartment that day, like

when David showed up to the scene, he

told police that he was with Nori that

night. So obviously he went down to the

police station with Carlos and Liz to

give a statement. But Liz said that he

just started like throwing out theories

and names. I mean, at that point though,

police were like taking every lead he'll

throw their way, jotting names down left

and right. But as Detective Patterson

tries to nail down David's relationship

with Nory and his movements that

Halloween weekend, things to him start

feeling kind of shifty. According to

Detective Patterson, David told him that

he was out that night with Nory at

Gustavo's club and he got so drunk that

somebody from the club drove him home

because he couldn't drive himself. And

wait, didn't he tell the friend that he

had a cold and went home and took

medicine?

>> Yes, that is what that friend remembers,

but it was a highly emotional time. Who

knows? Anyways, his place is like 40

minutes away in Maryland, meaning that

when someone drove him home, he had to

leave his car in DC. So, David said that

he came back to DC at some point the

next day to pick it up. And Detective

Patterson starts asking him, okay, like

where exactly did you leave your car?

How did you get back into the city? When

did you get back into the city? How long

were you here?

>> And and that's like the important part,

right? Like was he in DC, I don't know,

say between like 2:30 and 6 a.m.

>> Want to pull your hair out? So all these

years later, Detective Patterson can't

remember exactly what David said, and we

could not get an answer from current

investigators on this or from David

himself. But Detective Patterson told us

that he remembers David's answers just

weren't adding up. I mean, he said,

quote, "The math ain't mathing."

And then Detective Patterson learned

just how much Nory trusted David and how

much access he had to her apartment.

Because remember, one thing that he took

note of when he was first on the scene

was the fact that there was no forced

entry and the door to Nor's apartment

was locked when Carlos tried to check on

her. He had to get the security guard to

open it. Now, there are some alternate

possibilities around all of this that

I'm going to get into later, but based

on everything Detective Patterson saw at

the scene, he always thought that this

crime was personal, somebody Nory knew,

maybe somebody who even had a key to her

place. And Nory's brother Carlos tells

him David had one for a very interesting

reason.

So, at this time back in 2009, David was

married to a woman, but he was also

seeing men. Detective Patterson says

there was one man in particular that

they heard about who I'll call Eric for

privacy reasons. And apparently, Nory

let David use her apartment at this like

private place for them to meet up. Now,

when David was asked by Detective

Patterson if he had a key, he completely

denied it. and they were never able to

recover one from him. So, he very well

could be telling the truth. And really,

the key thing might not even be that big

of a deal because we were told Nory

actually left her door unlocked all the

time. Like I told you, her building had

like all this like security, security

guard, all these like door the keep up

whatever and it made her feel like she

was like

>> Yeah. living in a super secure place and

like she didn't necessarily always need

that extra layer. Carlos also told us

that she may have started even leaving

her door unlocked specifically for

David.

>> I guess I don't get what his motive

would be though cuz it sounds like Nory

was helping him out.

>> Well, that could come back to Nory's

camera. So, a source told us that

detectives learned that before Nory

died, she downloaded a batch of recent

photos from her digital camera onto a

computer at the restaurant because her

own computer wasn't working. And in

those files were pictures of David and

Eric together at a club, like dancing

and kissing. Oh, yeah. Now, I think it's

important to note that our reporter,

Malica, actually tracked down David's

wife, ex-wife now, and she told us that

she knew David was having affairs. She

and David were already sleeping in

separate rooms. And after Nory died,

they got divorced. So, I don't think her

finding out would have been motive for

anything, but that doesn't mean that he

was ready for the world to know.

>> And what was Eric's situation? So, from

what we could tell from like social

media, Eric was a couple of years out of

college working as a waiter back in

2009, not at Roomba Cafe as far as we

know. And I don't know if he was fully

out either, but he was like friendly

with Nory and her friends through David.

It seems like he was out with them at

least. And we actually reached out to

Eric during our reporting. And when we

asked if he would speak with us about

Nori, even just about like knowing her,

he said something like, "No, I mean like

rest in peace, Nori, but no." Listen,

here's the problem I have with all of

that, like motive or whatever. Nory

already downloaded those pictures of

David and Eric onto a computer. So,

like, if that was something you were

hiding, either one of them, taking the

camera,

>> you don't need the camera. You need the

computer at the restaurant. Yeah, but

maybe whoever did this didn't know that,

right? Like her computer isn't working.

They might think that like they might

not think about the computer at work.

They could think that everything is

still on the camera.

>> Sure, but why wait till that night? Like

if those pictures were so damning to

someone like to me, you get the c you

get the camera like the night that those

pictures were taken. That wasn't

Halloween.

I think that if the camera is relevant,

the pictures have to correspond to that

night.

>> And was Eric with David that night?

>> It doesn't seem like it. I mean,

remember, David leaves on his own when

he gets drunk, as far as we know, which

like doesn't mean that they couldn't

have met up later, but

>> yeah, either way, they collect both

men's DNA, and neither of them was a

match for the DNA that they have on

Nory. But even with that, there is

something that Detective Patterson just

can't shake about David. He doesn't

think that he was the one who killed

Nory, but in his personal opinion, he

has always believed that David may have

had some involvement or at least knew

more than he admitted.

>> David only. I mean, what about Eric?

>> I mean, Detective Patterson didn't say

much about Eric. Like I mean it seems

like most of his focus has been David.

But he is also clear that until they

know what happened to Nory. Like

nobody's completely off the table, but I

said it doesn't seem like he's really

like zeroing in on him at all.

>> Though I will say Eric may not have been

the only man that David was seeing. I

mean for almost the whole time we were

reporting on this story, we didn't hear

other names just like oh you know David

saw men in general. But we just learned

something from a friend of Norris that I

find very interesting. So this friend

told us that just a few weeks before

Norie's murder, she had stopped by Nor's

restaurant while David was there. And

Norie started telling her about a

different man that David was seeing who

was apparently a diplomat.

Norie's friend couldn't remember this

guy's name or even where he was from.

But Nory told this friend that she and

David went to a hotel where this

diplomat was staying. And Nory got into

an argument with this diplomat. She

basically called this guy out over the

way that he was acting toward David,

telling him like, "You're not a man.

What kind of man acts like this?" And

apparently she wasn't backing down. And

Nory's friend remembers like in that

moment being a little scared for Nori.

Like you know, if this guy really was a

diplomat, like he's probably powerful.

and Nory was just going off on him. Now,

she didn't hear anything more about this

guy, so maybe this is totally random,

but I can't verify an alibi or confirm

if his DNA was tested because this came

up so late in our reporting. We had

already done our interview with

Detective Patterson. We tried reaching

back out to him, but he has not gotten

back to us about our questions

surrounding this diplomat. The only

person who would even confirm that

police heard about a diplomat was Nory's

brother, Carlos. And he was interesting

to work with. Like, I mean, he's great.

He wants Nory's case solved more than

anyone. And yes, they they checked his

DNA and alibi, like everything. He has

never been a suspect. But, you know,

he's really cognizant of not hurting the

investigation. So, like if we learned

something from somewhere else, someone

else, he would confirm it. But he wasn't

necessarily like serving up any

information on his own.

>> Yes. And so that's like how it was with

this diplomat. So once we asked him

about this, he told us that he remembers

the diplomat being from Mexico. And he

remembers investigators tracking this

guy down and talking to him, but he

doesn't think anything came of it.

Though I don't know what that means or

how far they got with the guy. And I

don't know if that guy, whoever he is,

was even in DC on Halloween night 2009,

but I would love to ask.

>> Well, and I was wondering like, did

David and this diplomat ever use Nory's

apartment?

>> Me, too. I assume police have asked

David. I mean, Detective Patterson was

thorough, but we can't be sure until he

gets back to us.

>> I mean, if Patterson's theory is that

David knows more, someone like a

diplomat would make sense. someone he

might be afraid of. Or maybe there's

somebody else that he was involved with

that is yet to be identified. Or maybe

David really isn't involved at all. Even

though we didn't make contact with him,

we did speak to members of David's

family who remember him being devastated

by Nory's death. I mean, one family

member remembers him crying and saying

like she was my friend. Another

remembers how shocked he seemed, saying,

"I just saw her. I cannot believe this

happened." and they don't believe that

David was involved in Norie's murder and

he has never been charged with anything

in relation to it. Now, key or no key,

we did learn that Nori was known to

leave her apartment door unlocked. Like

the I told you the building had a

security guy at the front. It had

multiple cameras. You had to like use a

pass thing in order to get in. She felt

safe.

>> Yeah. She like it was there were so many

layers of security. Sometimes she didn't

feel like she needed that extra one.

>> Anyone could have come in.

>> Yes. But I'm stuck on how they would

have locked up behind them when they

left because you would need a key for

that.

>> I was going to come back to this. So, I

didn't want to get sidetracked. Here's

the thing. So, no one could or would

tell us definitively if Nory's keys were

all accounted for. Police say the only

thing missing was that camera of hers.

So, I assume that no keys were missing,

but we don't know for sure.

>> Especially if she had spares, right,

that she was like giving

>> she had made like there's no account of,

right? But more importantly, we know for

certain that someone else was in Nor's

apartment after she died, and they may

have locked her apartment door. When

police processed her apartment, they

found a card for an exterminator, and

they found out that the building had

scheduled like a maintenance thing for

the units on Monday, the same Monday

that Nory was found. So, an exterminator

had a key to let himself in. He sprayed.

He left. And when he left, it's very

likely he might have been the one who

actually locked the door like behind

him.

>> Wait, so he was in her apartment with

her dead body,

>> which I know sounds bananas. I like

spiraled on this. Detective Patterson

interviewed this guy. He said the guy

never actually went into the bedroom. He

had no idea that she was in there. And

this exterminator unfortunately doesn't

remember if the door already was locked

or unlocked when he went into

>> one of those things that you don't think

about remembering when it's happening.

>> So like I don't know is the fact that

there's no force entry doesn't mean

anything at all. I have no idea.

>> And they checked this guy's DNA, right?

Like the exterminator.

>> Yep. He's not a match.

>> So if someone didn't need to be let in

or have a key, that could open up the

suspect pool really, really wide. Maybe

it isn't somebody who knew her. Maybe

that's why this case has been so hard to

solve. Detective Patterson points to

things like the fact that Nory was

covered with the comforter after she was

killed. Like he says that's behavior you

often see when somebody cares for the

victim.

>> Right. But it can also be something that

a killer does if they're like ashamed of

what they did. Like

>> like if the murder wasn't the plan,

right?

>> Yeah. like you know maybe they had gone

in with the goal of some kind of like

sexual assault and things like got out

of

>> escalated like out of hand right

>> now interestingly Carlos ran into a

friend sometime a few months ago

somebody who's known both his family and

David for years and that friend told

Carlos that they ran into David recently

and David started talking about Nori he

allegedly described her death as a

sexual situation that went wrong that

night. Now, from what I can tell, we are

actually the first to report

confirmation of sexual assault. That was

never confirmed by police before. So,

back when this was said, it wasn't

public knowledge. Carlos obviously told

Detective Patterson it piqued his

interest because he's like, you know, in

all the times that I've talked to David,

David has never described Nory's death

as a sexual situation gone wrong.

any of the many theories that he

suggested to police.

>> Now, by this point, Patterson is

retired, so he passed the information on

to the current investigator,

>> but it might mean nothing. I mean, we

are hearing this secondhand. The friend

who supposedly heard this from David

wouldn't talk to us. And even if it was

said, it wasn't a secret that she was

found only in her underwear, in her bed.

Like maybe as more was reported or

shared with like their friend group or

family, it could have been an inference

that David made since it doesn't look

like she was robbed. Like it's not a

wild conclusion to jump to,

>> right? But like not robbed, sure, but we

do think something was taken.

>> We think something was taken. We know

Nori had her camera out that night, but

the truth is we can't see it in the

surveillance video when she comes home.

She's got like a purse or a bag or

something. So, like it might be in there

or maybe it got stolen. Like one of the

things I've I've been wondering, they

spend so much time or at least Detective

Patterson did talking about this camera

or this thing missing. I've I've often

wondered if it got like left in the cab.

>> Oh, with her phone.

>> With her phone, right? Phones are a

little easier to trace. like you you

want to give that back to the owner.

Cameras like poof, gone, easy. Finders,

keepers, like

>> they're also like easier to like pawn or

sell or get rid of or something.

>> My cyershot got stolen when I was in

high school. I don't want to talk. Still

a tender subject.

And listen, I keep coming back to like

if this was about the camera or the

pictures on the camera,

>> the thing I can't figure out is why kill

her? Why sexually assault her? Well,

that's if the camera had something on

it. Like we've been talking about like

evidence of an affair. But like one of

the pictures just showed someone she was

with that night who came back for her.

Like maybe it showed their costume and

would prove that they were both in her

lobby and

>> out like with her when she was out at

all these places.

>> I've thought I've thought about that. I

mean that's totally possible. Like

without the camera we have no idea

what's on it. I've also, I'll tell you,

thought like thrown around like a darker

theory like what if somebody used the

camera to take pictures of Nory after

they killed her or even just like took

it as a souvenir, a

>> trophy.

>> Yeah. If it was taken, we don't really

actually know the reason why.

>> The thing I keep coming back to and that

I just can't let go for some reason.

It's like her complex was so big. I keep

wondering how hard they looked at every

single person inside of it. Maybe the

killer was never caught on surveillance

cameras coming or going because they

were already there.

>> They could have known her habits. They

could have known that she was somebody

who didn't always lock her door. They

would know that there's no cameras in

the hallways. Now, I know Detective

Patterson explored that possibility,

too. He says that investigators went

door todo on Nory's floor talking to her

nextdoor neighbor and several other

people who like lived down the hall and

police did collect DNA from some people

connected to the building like even the

security guard who let Carlos and Liz

into Nor's unit.

>> I don't know exactly who else though or

an exact number of people even hearing

like oh we went door to door on her

floor that's great. What I was told is

there's more than,00 units.

>> Yeah. I was like, in perspective, the

town I grew up in is 1,600 people.

>> Yeah, that's all of Wakarusa.

>> That's all of Wakarusa to be tested

>> or talked to or contacted. And that's

kind of a huge number for a small place.

>> And what I'll say is like it's not like

they just looked right then because

Carlos remembers at least one resident

being tested years later after he died

by suicide. I think they wondered, you

know, could there have been a

connection? Seems like no. But overall,

Patterson remembers personally

collecting DNA from around 10 people and

later reporting says more than 20 people

were eventually tested. Still, again,

very big building. And I wonder if there

was someone in there who might have been

hiding in plain sight.

That DNA will be a major key to solving

this case. I really believe it's only a

matter of time. I mean, even though they

used the sample to get a profile good

enough for COD, there was some left that

could be used for IGG one day. Now, back

before Patterson retired in 2017, he

sent off the sample they had to Parabon

NanoLabs for analysis.

>> That was even before IGG was really a

thing.

>> They were doing still phenotyping, stuff

like that back then, but like right on

the cusp. And at the time, they were

told to wait. Like anything they were

going to do was going to use up the

entire sample. It's like all they had

left. the technology needed to get a

little bit better. Now, remember, he

retired, so he doesn't know what has

happened with that sample since he left.

I mean, it's been almost 10 years. I

mean, surely there's there's got to be

something they can do now.

>> I hope. I mean, for the sake of

everybody who has been pushing to get

this thing solved. None more than Nory's

family who have spent the last 16 years

trying to hold on hope that her case is

going to get solved. Carlos threw

himself into finding answers. I mean, he

chased leads. He called investigators.

And for a long time, he tried to solve

the case himself. And eventually, he

went to therapy. He started helping

other people work through their trauma,

too. And he says that today, the pain of

losing his sister, Nory, doesn't control

him the way that it once did. His Nori

sister Liz actually took a little bit of

a different path, though. She ended up

studying criminal justice and forensics.

like she had said she always had been

interested in that world, but Nory's

case became what she calls this

inspirational factor in the path that

she took.

>> And even though she's found ways to move

forward, she says that learning how to

live without Nori isn't the same thing

as accepting that nobody's ever been

held accountable for killing her.

>> So DNA might be the thing that solves

this case, but both Liz and Carlos

believe that somebody in Nor's world

knows more about what happened than

they've said. So the answers might not

hinge on just the evidence alone. They

might be with somebody out there

listening right now. So for our

listeners who were in the DC area back

in 2009, listen up. And if it's not you,

pass this episode on to somebody who

was. If you were at one of the DC clubs

Nory went to on Halloween night in 2009,

we want to hear from you. Even if you

don't think you have anything super

important, maybe you have pictures or

videos from that night. Who knows? The

names of the places are Roomba Cafe,

Russia House, and Bravo Bravo. And if

you lived or worked at Norri's building,

the Woodner, we want to hear from you,

too. Especially if you remember anything

from October 31st or November 1st, 2009.

But honestly, anytime around then, too.

Like, was anything going on in the

building? Any weird instances? anyone

who stood out. And I know I had to

change a lot of the names in this

episode for privacy, but if you

recognize the people that I've talked

about and you have had any interaction

with them, or if you've heard anything,

come forward. What you know or heard

might be something small. Maybe it

sounded like gossip or didn't feel

important enough to report. Maybe you

assume the detectives already knew, but

one tiny detail could be the break

investigators have been waiting for. You

can reach them by calling MPD at

202-72799

or you can reach us as always by

emailing tips@auudiochuck.com.

Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck

production.

I think Chuck would approve.